I now understand the nature of your objections to Aaron Kimberly’s and Buck Angel’s perspectives. Your careful analysis of specific claims they make exposes an underlying persistent sexism. The notion of transitioning as a progression from woman to man—and thus to fully human—is particularly chilling. Much food for thought here. Thanks for this great podcast.
If you watch Buck Angel’s interview with Aaron Kimberly entitled “Why I am Detransitioning, Part 2 FT Aaron Kimberly” on YouTube, you’ll see that Aaron clearly states (about 46 mins in) “I am not detransitioning.” The whole thing is a ruse, with a clickbait title from Buck Angel. I cannot take these people seriously. They blow with the wind.
Thanks for talking about the AAP hypothesis! Akiva's objections on generational grounds are 100% correct and I myself (I believe Tali too) have said this a repeatedly. Today, AAP young women immediately go to trans, not butch. The theory is that butch was the solve for gender dysphoria prior to transition being on offer, hence why so many transitioned as soon as it was feasible. It won't sound relatable to people like you two who literally never had any desire to be male, but consider it's application to other's who clearly do. A lot of confusing behaviors start to make a lot of sense once you understand them through the lens of AAP, especially metasexuality (attraction to the feminine as a means of bolstering one's own sense of masculinity). If anyone reading along is interested, give a listen to The Navel Gays on youtube or podcast.
Hi Aaron, we appreciate your responsiveness to the concerns we laid out in the episode. We think we have some significant ideological differences that for us have ethical implications.
You’ve written that “[b]utch lesbianism is a cultural identity, not an innate sexuality.” It is self-evident to us that butch and femme are innate sexualities that manifest in lesbian communities cross-culturally, under different names (e.g. Stud/Fem, Tom/Dee) but with the same essential characteristics.
Your explanation subsumes the raw lesbian sexuality that produced the “butch” label (and its constitutive relation to “femme”) into a category of presentation that for us is secondary. Butch lesbian masculine expression emerges from underlying sexuality – and for the two of us specifically, we would not have been singled out as gender-problematic as girls without the innate butch lesbianism that made us reject heteropatriarchal standards of cultivating femininity for men (of course, femmes also reject this in their own way and time). We say this to establish that we believe lesbian masculine/feminine presentations are inextricable from the process of figuring out where one stands relative to compulsory heterosexuality.
You have described stone sexuality and the use of strap-ons as “understood [by both partners] as an extension of the heteronormative sexual dynamic,” which you then subsume under the AAP framework. This mischaracterization of a sexuality oriented toward giving to one’s female partner is precisely the misunderstanding that, under the queertrans medical paradigm, has permitted care workers – from therapists to surgeons – to let their homophobia fly and tell butch lesbians they must want to be male, even if they “don’t know” they want to be. Our actual stated desire to be lesbians who strap is routinely explicitly denied in doctors’ offices for the alternative “explanation” of wanting to be male, supposedly subconsciously. We are thoroughly exhausted with having our needs described to us by people who do not recognize our experience at all.
For us, butch lesbian transition necessitates a systemic analysis. Transition of butch lesbians is a scourge that affected our community (including one of us) from outside: from the medical-industrial complex; from patriarchy’s long game of targeting female non-conformity for erasure from all sides; from the near-complete-banning of the words and frameworks “lesbian” and “female,” on the accusation they are “TERFy,” from every major university we worked at or near; from the culture’s pushing “queer” and “nonbinary” on our feminine partners so that we were encouraged to conflate masculinity with maleness; etc. These are systems that sustain the status quo (especially, the status quo of masculine = male and feminine = female) and gain social and financial capital from the transition of lesbians. Those are the forces butch lesbians have been up against, and that’s why you see so many butch lesbians fighting their way out of this right now. Transition is happening en masse to butch lesbian youth for the reasons we describe. Letting us articulate our own reality is the best way to support butch lesbians.
My focus is on understanding the experience of gender dysphoria, because I believe this is key to helping individuals and mental health professionals find alternatives to medical transition. I don't think there's any utility in singling out "butch lesbians" vs. "detrans women" vs. "trans men" Etc. These are cultural categories we have created for various women who wish to embody masculinity. They are not concrete, discrete groups of people.
I believe historically "butch" was the solution to female gender dysphoria, today that solution is "trans". I think where we agree is "butch" is far healthier social category for masculine women to identify with. Unfortunately though, they now have a more tempting and radical option on offer. I also believe in the past, gender dysphoric, masculine women gravitated to the "lesbian" label because that was again the only cultural designation that enabled them to "act like men" and the relationship with the more feminine bolstered their sense of masculinity. They weren't however strictly same sex attracted.
Today, again, with queer theory and all things trans and gender-fuckery, girls who wish to be masculine don't only have that one cultural lens to frame their masculinity in, so they are developing a more bisexual, "queer", self-conception. By this I mean, the cultural construct that was butch is unfortunately obsolete. Again, I think it is a much healthier construct than trans, but when a more radical option is on offer, most will take it. As much as I think we'd all be better off putting pandora back in the box, it's not possible.
However, I think if people understand what it is about masculinity they feel so propelled to embody, if they don't experience crushing anatomic dysphoria, if they can fulfill that deep need via playing the masculine role in a sexual relationship with their whole, healthy body... that is supremely superior to medical transition. But people have to know what it is that is pulling them toward maleness/masculinity in order to manage it in a sustainable way. That's mine and Tali's project.
“There is so much trying in gender ideology” bingo! There is no trying now for me as a butch lesbian in a butch femme relationship.
I now understand the nature of your objections to Aaron Kimberly’s and Buck Angel’s perspectives. Your careful analysis of specific claims they make exposes an underlying persistent sexism. The notion of transitioning as a progression from woman to man—and thus to fully human—is particularly chilling. Much food for thought here. Thanks for this great podcast.
If you watch Buck Angel’s interview with Aaron Kimberly entitled “Why I am Detransitioning, Part 2 FT Aaron Kimberly” on YouTube, you’ll see that Aaron clearly states (about 46 mins in) “I am not detransitioning.” The whole thing is a ruse, with a clickbait title from Buck Angel. I cannot take these people seriously. They blow with the wind.
Thank you for this!
Thanks for talking about the AAP hypothesis! Akiva's objections on generational grounds are 100% correct and I myself (I believe Tali too) have said this a repeatedly. Today, AAP young women immediately go to trans, not butch. The theory is that butch was the solve for gender dysphoria prior to transition being on offer, hence why so many transitioned as soon as it was feasible. It won't sound relatable to people like you two who literally never had any desire to be male, but consider it's application to other's who clearly do. A lot of confusing behaviors start to make a lot of sense once you understand them through the lens of AAP, especially metasexuality (attraction to the feminine as a means of bolstering one's own sense of masculinity). If anyone reading along is interested, give a listen to The Navel Gays on youtube or podcast.
Hi Aaron, we appreciate your responsiveness to the concerns we laid out in the episode. We think we have some significant ideological differences that for us have ethical implications.
You’ve written that “[b]utch lesbianism is a cultural identity, not an innate sexuality.” It is self-evident to us that butch and femme are innate sexualities that manifest in lesbian communities cross-culturally, under different names (e.g. Stud/Fem, Tom/Dee) but with the same essential characteristics.
Your explanation subsumes the raw lesbian sexuality that produced the “butch” label (and its constitutive relation to “femme”) into a category of presentation that for us is secondary. Butch lesbian masculine expression emerges from underlying sexuality – and for the two of us specifically, we would not have been singled out as gender-problematic as girls without the innate butch lesbianism that made us reject heteropatriarchal standards of cultivating femininity for men (of course, femmes also reject this in their own way and time). We say this to establish that we believe lesbian masculine/feminine presentations are inextricable from the process of figuring out where one stands relative to compulsory heterosexuality.
You have described stone sexuality and the use of strap-ons as “understood [by both partners] as an extension of the heteronormative sexual dynamic,” which you then subsume under the AAP framework. This mischaracterization of a sexuality oriented toward giving to one’s female partner is precisely the misunderstanding that, under the queertrans medical paradigm, has permitted care workers – from therapists to surgeons – to let their homophobia fly and tell butch lesbians they must want to be male, even if they “don’t know” they want to be. Our actual stated desire to be lesbians who strap is routinely explicitly denied in doctors’ offices for the alternative “explanation” of wanting to be male, supposedly subconsciously. We are thoroughly exhausted with having our needs described to us by people who do not recognize our experience at all.
For us, butch lesbian transition necessitates a systemic analysis. Transition of butch lesbians is a scourge that affected our community (including one of us) from outside: from the medical-industrial complex; from patriarchy’s long game of targeting female non-conformity for erasure from all sides; from the near-complete-banning of the words and frameworks “lesbian” and “female,” on the accusation they are “TERFy,” from every major university we worked at or near; from the culture’s pushing “queer” and “nonbinary” on our feminine partners so that we were encouraged to conflate masculinity with maleness; etc. These are systems that sustain the status quo (especially, the status quo of masculine = male and feminine = female) and gain social and financial capital from the transition of lesbians. Those are the forces butch lesbians have been up against, and that’s why you see so many butch lesbians fighting their way out of this right now. Transition is happening en masse to butch lesbian youth for the reasons we describe. Letting us articulate our own reality is the best way to support butch lesbians.
-A+R
My focus is on understanding the experience of gender dysphoria, because I believe this is key to helping individuals and mental health professionals find alternatives to medical transition. I don't think there's any utility in singling out "butch lesbians" vs. "detrans women" vs. "trans men" Etc. These are cultural categories we have created for various women who wish to embody masculinity. They are not concrete, discrete groups of people.
I believe historically "butch" was the solution to female gender dysphoria, today that solution is "trans". I think where we agree is "butch" is far healthier social category for masculine women to identify with. Unfortunately though, they now have a more tempting and radical option on offer. I also believe in the past, gender dysphoric, masculine women gravitated to the "lesbian" label because that was again the only cultural designation that enabled them to "act like men" and the relationship with the more feminine bolstered their sense of masculinity. They weren't however strictly same sex attracted.
Today, again, with queer theory and all things trans and gender-fuckery, girls who wish to be masculine don't only have that one cultural lens to frame their masculinity in, so they are developing a more bisexual, "queer", self-conception. By this I mean, the cultural construct that was butch is unfortunately obsolete. Again, I think it is a much healthier construct than trans, but when a more radical option is on offer, most will take it. As much as I think we'd all be better off putting pandora back in the box, it's not possible.
However, I think if people understand what it is about masculinity they feel so propelled to embody, if they don't experience crushing anatomic dysphoria, if they can fulfill that deep need via playing the masculine role in a sexual relationship with their whole, healthy body... that is supremely superior to medical transition. But people have to know what it is that is pulling them toward maleness/masculinity in order to manage it in a sustainable way. That's mine and Tali's project.